It's interesting he was basically quoting Tony Abbott on this. Made me think of what Abbott said about Gillard's father being ashamed of her. What is wrong with these guys?
I can't grasp why Mr Dutton's behaviour & tactics are so obvious to me & many others but appears to have escaped the attention of the MSM (Laura Tingle excepted). Is it because they are so attached to the conflict model of journalism or are they just thick?
The pressure to normalise establishment parties/politicians is so enormous as to be instinctive. Trump benefits from this too, with too many mainstream outlets sandpapering off all the insane edges. In this context--and I am not making comparisons--it is worth noting that the world media was pretty forgiving of Hitler, too, right up until, say, the Enabling Act of 1933.
If one looks at the Italian experience of Mussolini's Fascism and his Parliamentary rise and fall one can see the similarities between Il Duce and Dutton's trajectory. Dutton's nom de plume is Mussolini MkII
People keep comparing Dutton to Trump but I think Farage is a better point of reference. And you made me think about what happened to Mussolini and what Trump's mob tried to do to Pence...
Thanks for sharing these excerpts, Tim - that last one with the Russian soldiers is a total gut punch. Not sure if you want to dive into yet another lengthy book on Nazis, but (if you haven't read it) 'Law of Blood - Thinking and Acting Like a Nazi' by Johann Chapoutot was quite illuminating for me, . It might explain the 'gleeful madness' that Dawidowicz sees beneath the surface of Hitler's trepadations, and it truly was a madness.
Amis had made some interesting points in interviews that, in comparison to Stalin and Mao, Hitler and the Nazis were almost ideologically bereft. You could just about rationalise the soviets (his words) but with Hitler it almost doesn't make sense, taking that much energy away from the war effort to achieve what, exactly?
To make an over the top comparison, I see Dutton in the same way. I despised Abbott and Turnbull, but I could see what they were up to and they certainly weren't stupid. With Dutton, there is just nothing there, both politically and intellectually. Mark McGowan said it best about him: "He's an extremist... and I've seen him present. He's actually not that smart".
Total gut punch, agree. That response to the Höss bio is also pretty incredible, imho. Thanks for the Chapoutot tip: not one that has come up in my research, so I will check it out (there is SO much!). And yes, I still haven't got my head around the Hitler/Stalin comparisons. Which goes to that whole question of Hitler's uniqueness. I've seen some of those Amis interviews. One thing I like about MA is that there was an immense amount of research behind Zone. He was pretty obsessed with the topic.
Thanks Tim, another really good piece. Dutton is echoing commentary by Douglas Murray from way back in October last year (or thereabouts). It was wrong then and it's wrong now. Speaking of shame or the lack of it, has Mr Dutton seen the "debates" in the Knesset about how Israeli soldiers should have the legal right to rape and torture prisoners? Or the Israeli civilians who have blockaded aid trucks trying to enter Gaza? Who then trample the food aid into the dust so that it can't be used?
As they say at the Free Palestine rallies, "Shame!"
I think you guys are giving Dutton too much credit. Dutton’s knowledge of history is likely to be very, very thin and I’d say his knowledge of the holocaust is no more than the general public (which would be low), thus when he made his comment about “shame” he had no idea what he was potentially opening himself up to, like I suspect most of us wouldn’t. However, he won’t backtrack and admit his lack of understanding and apologise.
Imo Dutton’s a dullard who has a self-inflated sense of importance, a self-belief in where he’s going, he’s a self-entitled @@@@k. By making his comment I’m not claiming any exceptionalism for myself.
Might be all true but you can't let these things stand. It isn't about giving hm too much credit; it's about not giving him a free pass, however dull or unrepentant he might be. If we don't call out the dull, unrepentant, ignorant ones, they're ones who end up running things. History is pretty clear on that, at least.
lolol maybe I gave the wrong impression with a poorly worded comment. No, as far as I’m concerned you can belt him with a 4x2 until he’s a bloody pulp!
The quote attributed to Heinrich Himmler, SS and Gestapo chief, has a very contemporary ring to it:
“For I did not consider myself justified in exterminating the men—in other words, killing them or having them killed—and then allowing their children to grow up to wreak vengeance on our children and grandchildren. The difficult decision had to be taken to make these people disappear from the face of the earth. “
I recently read Primo Levi, an Auschwitz survivor who has written several very readable books on the topic. I think it's absolutely necessary for everyone to know as well as possible what things were like at the time. I grew up in Amsterdam which has a rich Jewish history and I thought I knew it all - yet I learned so much.
Right-wing culture warriors like Peter Dutton flippantly distort historical context in their quest to score political points from comfort in their ignorance and a fundamental lack of genuine belief or values. It's a cynical approach that reveals more about their disregard for truth and meaningful discourse than any commitment to real principles.
I suspect the concept of shame is quite foreign to Dutton.
It's interesting he was basically quoting Tony Abbott on this. Made me think of what Abbott said about Gillard's father being ashamed of her. What is wrong with these guys?
I can't grasp why Mr Dutton's behaviour & tactics are so obvious to me & many others but appears to have escaped the attention of the MSM (Laura Tingle excepted). Is it because they are so attached to the conflict model of journalism or are they just thick?
The pressure to normalise establishment parties/politicians is so enormous as to be instinctive. Trump benefits from this too, with too many mainstream outlets sandpapering off all the insane edges. In this context--and I am not making comparisons--it is worth noting that the world media was pretty forgiving of Hitler, too, right up until, say, the Enabling Act of 1933.
If one looks at the Italian experience of Mussolini's Fascism and his Parliamentary rise and fall one can see the similarities between Il Duce and Dutton's trajectory. Dutton's nom de plume is Mussolini MkII
People keep comparing Dutton to Trump but I think Farage is a better point of reference. And you made me think about what happened to Mussolini and what Trump's mob tried to do to Pence...
Thanks for sharing these excerpts, Tim - that last one with the Russian soldiers is a total gut punch. Not sure if you want to dive into yet another lengthy book on Nazis, but (if you haven't read it) 'Law of Blood - Thinking and Acting Like a Nazi' by Johann Chapoutot was quite illuminating for me, . It might explain the 'gleeful madness' that Dawidowicz sees beneath the surface of Hitler's trepadations, and it truly was a madness.
Amis had made some interesting points in interviews that, in comparison to Stalin and Mao, Hitler and the Nazis were almost ideologically bereft. You could just about rationalise the soviets (his words) but with Hitler it almost doesn't make sense, taking that much energy away from the war effort to achieve what, exactly?
To make an over the top comparison, I see Dutton in the same way. I despised Abbott and Turnbull, but I could see what they were up to and they certainly weren't stupid. With Dutton, there is just nothing there, both politically and intellectually. Mark McGowan said it best about him: "He's an extremist... and I've seen him present. He's actually not that smart".
Total gut punch, agree. That response to the Höss bio is also pretty incredible, imho. Thanks for the Chapoutot tip: not one that has come up in my research, so I will check it out (there is SO much!). And yes, I still haven't got my head around the Hitler/Stalin comparisons. Which goes to that whole question of Hitler's uniqueness. I've seen some of those Amis interviews. One thing I like about MA is that there was an immense amount of research behind Zone. He was pretty obsessed with the topic.
Thanks Tim, another really good piece. Dutton is echoing commentary by Douglas Murray from way back in October last year (or thereabouts). It was wrong then and it's wrong now. Speaking of shame or the lack of it, has Mr Dutton seen the "debates" in the Knesset about how Israeli soldiers should have the legal right to rape and torture prisoners? Or the Israeli civilians who have blockaded aid trucks trying to enter Gaza? Who then trample the food aid into the dust so that it can't be used?
As they say at the Free Palestine rallies, "Shame!"
Yes, that is the next thread to draw out.
I think you guys are giving Dutton too much credit. Dutton’s knowledge of history is likely to be very, very thin and I’d say his knowledge of the holocaust is no more than the general public (which would be low), thus when he made his comment about “shame” he had no idea what he was potentially opening himself up to, like I suspect most of us wouldn’t. However, he won’t backtrack and admit his lack of understanding and apologise.
Imo Dutton’s a dullard who has a self-inflated sense of importance, a self-belief in where he’s going, he’s a self-entitled @@@@k. By making his comment I’m not claiming any exceptionalism for myself.
Might be all true but you can't let these things stand. It isn't about giving hm too much credit; it's about not giving him a free pass, however dull or unrepentant he might be. If we don't call out the dull, unrepentant, ignorant ones, they're ones who end up running things. History is pretty clear on that, at least.
lolol maybe I gave the wrong impression with a poorly worded comment. No, as far as I’m concerned you can belt him with a 4x2 until he’s a bloody pulp!
The quote attributed to Heinrich Himmler, SS and Gestapo chief, has a very contemporary ring to it:
“For I did not consider myself justified in exterminating the men—in other words, killing them or having them killed—and then allowing their children to grow up to wreak vengeance on our children and grandchildren. The difficult decision had to be taken to make these people disappear from the face of the earth. “
Yes, there are some very disturbing contemporary cognates for this. It was then and is now, horrifying.
I recently read Primo Levi, an Auschwitz survivor who has written several very readable books on the topic. I think it's absolutely necessary for everyone to know as well as possible what things were like at the time. I grew up in Amsterdam which has a rich Jewish history and I thought I knew it all - yet I learned so much.
Levi's books are near the top of the pile when anyone asks me for recommendations. Agree: absolutely necessary to be aware.
Right-wing culture warriors like Peter Dutton flippantly distort historical context in their quest to score political points from comfort in their ignorance and a fundamental lack of genuine belief or values. It's a cynical approach that reveals more about their disregard for truth and meaningful discourse than any commitment to real principles.
Yes, it can be hard to know what he actually believes but I always think of that Kurt Vonnegut quote, "You are what you pretend to be."